What if I don't want to "Join the Conversation"

By Alex Hillman on Wednesday, July 9th, 2008 in business with 26 Comments

Brian Oberkirch is one of only a few people in this world who’s every word I hang on. Brian is a thought leader, in it’s truest form. I’m proud that Brian even knows my name. Enough fanboycrap. On to the thoughts that Brian stirred up for me.

Brian just wrote a post taking a jab at conversational marketing, clearly pointing his pointer finger at the “Misbegotten & generally borked offspring of Cluetrain“. His point is something that drove me to create a Flickr group over 6 months ago, tounge in cheek renouncing the phrase “Join the Conversation”. I ended up not following through with the Flickr group because all that happened every time I looked at it, I got angry.

I hate the phrase “join the conversation” because it encourages the worst thing that conversational marketing could have: dilution of valuable, community contributed information.

“Join the conversation” encourages a poor signal to noise ratio.

“Join the conversation” has bred an entire movement that’s forgotten what the social in social media means.

“Join the conversation” doesn’t mean “listen to me, me-me-me-me-me”.

Conversational marketing doesn’t mean “talk about it until they can’t help but listen”.

Conversational marketing DOES mean that your pitches don’t sound like pitches. Conversational marketing means STOP PITCHING.

Guess what. If you are still trying so hard to be conversational, odds are, it’s coming across as far less genuine than if you aren’t trying at all.

Stop, collaborate and listen (yeah, i went there)

How about listening for a change? Rather than spending all of your time talking about what your customers/partners/vendors/markets/employees/members, whatever might want; ASK THEM.

So what does this boil down to?

I think that you should take a good hard look at your “conversational marketing” techniques and exercise the side of the conversation that most people aren’t terribly good at:

listening.

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  • http://brianoberkirch.com Brian Oberkirch

    Alex: first off, you’re too kind. Thanks for the words of encouragement. Second, hey, did I hit a nerve for you, or what? I’m not sure what it is, either, exactly. Somewhat like eating too many sweets. The whole thing just makes me a little upset in the tummy. But you’ve seen yourself just how wonderful it is to use these connections to do something like create a shared workspace for everyone. A home away from home. There is real stuff going on, but we need better ways to talk about it.

  • http://brianoberkirch.com Brian Oberkirch

    Alex: first off, you’re too kind. Thanks for the words of encouragement. Second, hey, did I hit a nerve for you, or what? I’m not sure what it is, either, exactly. Somewhat like eating too many sweets. The whole thing just makes me a little upset in the tummy. But you’ve seen yourself just how wonderful it is to use these connections to do something like create a shared workspace for everyone. A home away from home. There is real stuff going on, but we need better ways to talk about it.

  • http://alexhillman.myopenid.com Alex Hillman

    Brian, Yeah, I hear you on the upset tummy overindulgance thing.

    There’s an immense value in marketing using connections and relationships, but I still see the majority of the “relationships” people are using as abusive and one-sided.

    I guess what scares me is that new people are joining the “new media/social media marketing” buffet line every day, but the new people entering the fold see what the majority is up to. And right now, the majority is up to “blah blah blah blah twitter blah blah blah.”

    :)

  • http://alexhillman.myopenid.com Alex Hillman

    Brian, Yeah, I hear you on the upset tummy overindulgance thing.

    There’s an immense value in marketing using connections and relationships, but I still see the majority of the “relationships” people are using as abusive and one-sided.

    I guess what scares me is that new people are joining the “new media/social media marketing” buffet line every day, but the new people entering the fold see what the majority is up to. And right now, the majority is up to “blah blah blah blah twitter blah blah blah.”

    :)

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  • http://reachingforlucidity.net Eban Crawford

    What was that I just consumed? Oh yeah, it was a breath of fresh air.

    You did a great job of putting into words things that have been fermenting in my mind for a while now. In my case, the fermenting was producing more vinegar than fine vino where the “conversation” is concerned.

    Good call on the signal to noise ratio. Seems like the growing trend is so many people seem to have so much to say, but not much of substance to actually offer. The trend does not seem to be reversing.

    But then out comes this post, Owyang, and more.

    Maybe there is hope after all.

    Cheers, Eban

  • http://reachingforlucidity.net Eban Crawford

    What was that I just consumed? Oh yeah, it was a breath of fresh air.

    You did a great job of putting into words things that have been fermenting in my mind for a while now. In my case, the fermenting was producing more vinegar than fine vino where the “conversation” is concerned.

    Good call on the signal to noise ratio. Seems like the growing trend is so many people seem to have so much to say, but not much of substance to actually offer. The trend does not seem to be reversing.

    But then out comes this post, Owyang, and more.

    Maybe there is hope after all.

    Cheers, Eban

  • http://www.deborahschultz.com deb schultz

    There is hope – and thanks for a great post {I already told Brian] – I have a post of my own in the works. I am SO freakin tired of people being lazy on this stuff.

    Listen is the first thing you MUST do.

    Look forward to meeting you one of these days!

  • http://www.deborahschultz.com deb schultz

    There is hope – and thanks for a great post {I already told Brian] – I have a post of my own in the works. I am SO freakin tired of people being lazy on this stuff.

    Listen is the first thing you MUST do.

    Look forward to meeting you one of these days!

  • http://stubborndreams.wordpress.com Kevin Lee

    I know this article is mainly about online conversations but have you heard of Jeri Yoshizu? I wouldn’t have heard of her unless I read an article in Business 2.0 about five years ago. Like it or not (too boxy? too ugly?), you’ve probably you know or have heard of Toyota’s Scion brand. Jeri was instrumental in launching Scion. She asked questions and listened.

    The 2003 article described how she would go out to hip places/stores/events and actively engage and listen to real young people (the target audience) about what they wanted in a car (and bring back feedback to HQ like it was “looks like a toy”). A 33-year (who looked 20-ish if I remember her photo correctly) and could plausibly connect with Gen Y, Jeri was able to meld into the youth/hip-hop scene and later became part of it (by Toyota sponsoring concerts under the Scion banner). I was skeptical about the Scion based on their marketing strategy but and it helped bring the average age of Toyota drivers down a little step. While Scion hasn’t been a runaway success, it has created a brand identity (thinking of a couple of 40ish co-workers who drive Scion xA/xBs because they choose to). I think of the Scion marketing as a success.

    http://money.cnn.com/magazines/business2/business2_archive/2003/05/01/341961/index.htm

  • http://stubborndreams.wordpress.com Kevin Lee

    I know this article is mainly about online conversations but have you heard of Jeri Yoshizu? I wouldn’t have heard of her unless I read an article in Business 2.0 about five years ago. Like it or not (too boxy? too ugly?), you’ve probably you know or have heard of Toyota’s Scion brand. Jeri was instrumental in launching Scion. She asked questions and listened.

    The 2003 article described how she would go out to hip places/stores/events and actively engage and listen to real young people (the target audience) about what they wanted in a car (and bring back feedback to HQ like it was “looks like a toy”). A 33-year (who looked 20-ish if I remember her photo correctly) and could plausibly connect with Gen Y, Jeri was able to meld into the youth/hip-hop scene and later became part of it (by Toyota sponsoring concerts under the Scion banner). I was skeptical about the Scion based on their marketing strategy but and it helped bring the average age of Toyota drivers down a little step. While Scion hasn’t been a runaway success, it has created a brand identity (thinking of a couple of 40ish co-workers who drive Scion xA/xBs because they choose to). I think of the Scion marketing as a success.

    http://money.cnn.com/magazines/business2/business2_archive/2003/05/01/341961/index.htm

  • http://alexhillman.myopenid.com Alex Hillman

    Kevin, I was certainly pointing fingers at online conversations for this context, but I’m a firm believer in online only ever being part of the PR package. One isn’t nearly as effective without the other, in EITHER direction.

    Great story about the success of listening-based marketing. Thanks for sharing!

  • http://alexhillman.myopenid.com Alex Hillman

    Kevin, I was certainly pointing fingers at online conversations for this context, but I’m a firm believer in online only ever being part of the PR package. One isn’t nearly as effective without the other, in EITHER direction.

    Great story about the success of listening-based marketing. Thanks for sharing!

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  • http://humanvoice.wordhpress.com Tom O’Brien

    Hi Alex:

    Nice post. For the record, I’m not against “join the conversation” as a phrase – I’m hung up on the how.

    Joining a community conversation in progress is like being a new kid at school. You are nobody and you don’t have any creds. You have to hang out for a while, get the gist of what people care about and how they treat each other, then you might start to participate and contribute. (Contribute something they care about – not what you care about!)

    Walking into a party and shouting “here I am” is no more appropriate in social media than it is anywhere else.

    I agree that it all starts with listening – and it is not conversational marketing – but perhaps marketing informed by the new reality! Here is a great case study that begins with Listening:

    http://tinyurl.com/5z3dbx

    TO’B

  • http://humanvoice.wordhpress.com Tom O’Brien

    Hi Alex:

    Nice post. For the record, I’m not against “join the conversation” as a phrase – I’m hung up on the how.

    Joining a community conversation in progress is like being a new kid at school. You are nobody and you don’t have any creds. You have to hang out for a while, get the gist of what people care about and how they treat each other, then you might start to participate and contribute. (Contribute something they care about – not what you care about!)

    Walking into a party and shouting “here I am” is no more appropriate in social media than it is anywhere else.

    I agree that it all starts with listening – and it is not conversational marketing – but perhaps marketing informed by the new reality! Here is a great case study that begins with Listening:

    http://tinyurl.com/5z3dbx

    TO’B

  • http://alexhillman.myopenid.com Alex Hillman

    Tom, Excellent point. It’s social skills, really.

    Perhaps we should be teaching social skills instead of consuming social media like it’s the cure, hmmm?

  • http://alexhillman.myopenid.com Alex Hillman

    Tom, Excellent point. It’s social skills, really.

    Perhaps we should be teaching social skills instead of consuming social media like it’s the cure, hmmm?

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  • http://tedshelton.blogspot.com Ted Shelton

    Hey Alex, Tom -

    I think this is exactly the right point. And not just because I have the word “conversation” in the name of my company :-) Like Deb I am always telling people that this is NOT about the technology, it is about the sociology and that the main things you need to understand are the same ones you use every day in the communities you belong to at work, school, church, in your neighborhood — teaching social skills…

    I was attracted to this post because my company was mentioned (in the comments) on your subsequent post on Mashable. Not favorably. I am not proud of that – and wish we didn’t have any detractors out there. And I wish we didn’t have anyone who hated the word “conversation” either. :-)

    I have to say, Peter Hirshberg and I do take some of the blame for the “conversational marketing” meme that we helped get started while we were at Technorati. The problem was that the thing Technorati sells is advertising, so we tried to develop a product for marketers that would bridge between the old world of advertising and the new world of communities. But along the way we had a really important realization…

    The important work that we were doing with our clients wasn’t about marketing, it was about entirely changing how their companies do business. How they can stop worrying and learn to love the fact that their employees are talking to the market all the time…

    That is why we left Technorati and started The Conversation Group and why we are working with companies in the US an Europe to help fundamentally change the way they do business. It isn’t easy – there is a lot of resistance to change. Companies want to keep PITCHING. It is easier than conversation and community. And it feels more comfortable to be in control…

    We all grew up in a world where the objective was to CONTROL the message. The meme of “join the conversation” was intended to subvert this desire for control and get people to think about what you do when you join any conversation as people — first you listen, then if you have something to contribute to the conversation you do but at a time and in a way that the other people talking appreciate the addition.

    How some people take that phrase and turn it back into pitching is beyond me… as you rightly say: “Join the conversation” doesn’t mean “listen to me, me-me-me-me-me”. It genuinely means what you think it should mean — first listen, then join – and make sure you add value.

    As such, “join the conversation” is still a useful way to get people stuck in the old way of doing things to stop and think about how they need to change.

    best

    Ted Shelton

  • http://tedshelton.blogspot.com Ted Shelton

    Hey Alex, Tom -

    I think this is exactly the right point. And not just because I have the word “conversation” in the name of my company :-) Like Deb I am always telling people that this is NOT about the technology, it is about the sociology and that the main things you need to understand are the same ones you use every day in the communities you belong to at work, school, church, in your neighborhood — teaching social skills…

    I was attracted to this post because my company was mentioned (in the comments) on your subsequent post on Mashable. Not favorably. I am not proud of that – and wish we didn’t have any detractors out there. And I wish we didn’t have anyone who hated the word “conversation” either. :-)

    I have to say, Peter Hirshberg and I do take some of the blame for the “conversational marketing” meme that we helped get started while we were at Technorati. The problem was that the thing Technorati sells is advertising, so we tried to develop a product for marketers that would bridge between the old world of advertising and the new world of communities. But along the way we had a really important realization…

    The important work that we were doing with our clients wasn’t about marketing, it was about entirely changing how their companies do business. How they can stop worrying and learn to love the fact that their employees are talking to the market all the time…

    That is why we left Technorati and started The Conversation Group and why we are working with companies in the US an Europe to help fundamentally change the way they do business. It isn’t easy – there is a lot of resistance to change. Companies want to keep PITCHING. It is easier than conversation and community. And it feels more comfortable to be in control…

    We all grew up in a world where the objective was to CONTROL the message. The meme of “join the conversation” was intended to subvert this desire for control and get people to think about what you do when you join any conversation as people — first you listen, then if you have something to contribute to the conversation you do but at a time and in a way that the other people talking appreciate the addition.

    How some people take that phrase and turn it back into pitching is beyond me… as you rightly say: “Join the conversation” doesn’t mean “listen to me, me-me-me-me-me”. It genuinely means what you think it should mean — first listen, then join – and make sure you add value.

    As such, “join the conversation” is still a useful way to get people stuck in the old way of doing things to stop and think about how they need to change.

    best

    Ted Shelton

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